What happens when you oppress the poor libfems…

In my last post, I gave a brief portrait of what trolling looks like when it comes my way, and how the rules of civility tend to punish activists in favor of trolls. I want to revisit last night’s Facebook incident because it’s still going on. This Facebook page is a well-known radical feminist forum, supposedly, and guess what? I have had dozens of comments dogpiling me, insulting me, putting words in my mouth and basically telling me to shut up.

My offense? Being too aggressive with people of privilege and not being sufficiently inclusive of men. That’s right. Our radfem hub has been infiltrated by libfems. As I mentioned in my last post, my comment is the most liked. Even now, I keep getting likes. So the message is being heard. Unfortunately, only one of my supporters defended me in the comments. The rest were intimidated into silence and watched as I was pilloried.

This was the man -hating, exclusionary, aggressive, jealous, woman shaming comment that started all this:

“With all respect to Emma Watson, I’m not interested in being lectured on feminism by a woman of tremendous economic privilege who makes a large chunk of her fortune catering to the male gaze. If she has found a cause she cares about and manages to do good, that’s commendable. But playing a somewhat feminist fantasy character as a teenager does not make you an expert on feminism and I don’t need feminism explained to me. Thank you.”
Shame on me, obviously. Why, it just might be worse than the SCUM Manifesto. 


After this comment, I was told I was trashing Emma’s success, that I was jealous of Emma, that I was a lesbian with hip dysplasia (still can’t figure that one out), was told I was woman-hating, asked for my lady card, and had words put in my mouth and straw men erected against me. One example is that I was being bizarre and illogical for accusing the Harry Potter franchise for catering to the male gaze, which is not what I said at all. I was even told that I was holding women’s rights back, that I need to get a grip and realize that men can be feminists too. My attackers then proceed to read off a list of their personal Nigels that prove how awesome men are. I was even told to stop with the aggression.

That’s right. Feminist was told by other feminists to stop being so angry! Of course! Never heard that before! So original! So effective! Why, that’s how all social justice movements get ahead, by being nice all the time! Tell that to the suffragettes, I think they might have appreciated knowing that if they had just been nicer, they might have avoided all that force feeding and jail and stuff. 

Now that I have tried, and failed, to have an intelligent discussion on Facebook, I want to add a few words I didn’t dare say in that Facebook post. 

I resent celebrity activism, especially celebrity feminism. I resent the cult of the celebrity in our culture. I feel that rather than ooh and ahh over a handful of rich and famous people with spare time and a Twitter account, ordinary people took action on their own behalf. I resent the fact that women like Hillary Clinton with her character, her qualifications, her record of public service are ignored, insulted, slandered, and threatened, and so irrationally hated that millions of people voted for the next Hitler to avoid having her as a leader. Meanwhile women like  Emma Watson, with no such qualifications, are given the limelight and are well received in large part because they are young, conventionally attractive and happen to be famous. I doubt Emma Watson would have received her current distinction otherwise. Even if she had the qualifications, which she doesn’t, it’s unlikely she would have been noticed if she were,say, a middle age butch lesbian. 

Of course there is nothing wrong with Emma genuinely caring, wanting to educate herself, and use her clout to do good. But real, lasting change doesn’t happen as a result of a few high-profile figures. Name one movement that won their battles by employing a handful of movie stars. It doesn’t happen that way. It happens when groups of committed, ordinary people stand up to power or, if they have it, give up their power by, for example, going to jail, taking real risks. 

Also, if you are going to employ a figurehead for a cause, putting someone like Emma Watson is an insult, however well intentioned she may be. The message being sent is that women’s issues aren’t serious enough to warrant a qualified candidate to represent them. A popular 20-something actress will do, especially if she’s cute. I happen to believe that women deserve an advocate that actually a) bears some resemblance to them and how they live, which EW doesn’t and B) has real qualifications for a UN position or any high profile position that affects public policy and people’s lives. 

By the way, that was another attack I was subjected to, that I had no right to criticize Emma’s economic privilege because she worked hard for her success. (Oh, yes, how tired, abused, and downtrodden a life it must be to be paid millions of dollars to play dress up. Yeah, no.) But I digress. 

Lastly, I expect people advocating for me, or for the common good, in public to be accountable, take criticism, and make a reasonable effort to live by their principles. It’s dandy for EW to criticize the sexualization of young girls and to tell her own story of being objectified in this way. But it rings hollow from someone who makes big bucks posing for fashion magazines and who, generally, goes out of her way to perform constructed femininity in her everyday life. Her choice? Yes. A choice that I am obligated to take seriously? Nope.

I have decided not to read any more comments on that Facebook post, not to reply to anything, or spend any more time on that page. With that, I give you my closing thoughts, my last comment on that page:

“She works as a model. She fits conventional ideas of what feminine is. That’s catering to the male gaze. Also, I commended Emma Watson in my comment for trying. And that seems to get ignored. As for aggression…sorry, social movements don’t make progress by, again, going out of our way to not alienate or not be aggressive. What people don’t realize is that to those who are truly opposed to us, the only stance that’s non-alienating and non-aggressive enough to be considered is acquiescence. If not acquiescing in my totally level-headed comments constitutes “aggression,” then so be it. Don’t like it? Don’t read my comments. I’m not in the business of watering down feminist discussion to meaninglessness to make people feel good. Furthermore, I feel that women spend too much time defending their proverbial Nigels than actually serving women. As for my comments about Harry Potter, I didn’t say the Harry Potter franchise catered to the male gaze, nor did I trash her success. I was making the point that being a strong female character in a youth series doesn’t make you an expert on feminism. Tell me what substantive experience Emma Watson has in work or in life that helps women at large? None that I can see other than fame and a profession that places style over substance. I think it would behoove you all to learn to read and to have the integrity to respond to what I actually said instead of putting words in my mouth.”
Waiting to be banned in three…two…one…



  1. Saye Bennett · December 8, 2016

    It is completely ridiculous when people cannot have a conversation to express opposing viewpoints without stooping to being rude and disrespectful.

    • joannadeadwinter · December 8, 2016

      Yup! The original comment wasn’t rude at all, but somehow I created a monster. I guess it hit too close to home.

  2. grumpyoldnurse · December 8, 2016

    A lesbian with hip dysplasia? I’m sorry. My brain just got kind of stuck on that one, because so bloody ridiculous.

  3. Ziggy Blum · December 9, 2016

    Facebook, in many ways, is the death of conversation and colloquy. I’ve found it almost impossible to talk about anything serious in that format–it invites sound bites, snappy, terse wisecracks, hit-and-run insults rather than thoughtful dialog, and I fear that’s one reason it’s so popular. We’ll never get anywhere if we have to shout it out on Facebook, where half the snarky comments come from drive-by commentators who aren’t at all interested in an interchange.

    FWIW, I agree with you.

    • joannadeadwinter · December 9, 2016

      I agree 100%, and I’m afraid Twitter, Tumblr, etc. are worse. What is one to do if one wants to be heard on social media?

      • k.jane · January 16, 2017

        Oh yeah, those sites are worse. On tumblr, everyone’s opinion is valid as long as it’s the right one (as in, you’re in the majority.) I know someone who got a ridiculous amount of hate mail for posting a negative review of a movie on there. Keep in mind, there was no political discussion involved or hot-button issues discussed. She even posted it behind a cut and warned people that maybe they shouldn’t read it if they did like said movie. But she still got a ton of weird personal attacks for it and got told to leave the fandom because you can’t possibly like parts of a series while still thinking it’s going downhill. (I guess on the plus side, some people who liked the movie defended her, but it was still ridiculous.)

  4. k.jane · January 16, 2017

    Some of the insults are just so weird, especially the “lesbian with hip dysplasia”. Where did they even get that idea?
    I don’t think your post about Emma Watson was rude at all. You didn’t personally attack her, unlike the people who disagreed with you. I think you made some valid points about celebrity activism. Yes, it’s nice if Emma Watson wants to try to educate herself and do some good things in the world, but the reality is that things get better when ordinary people do something.

  5. FemaleAtlas · December 20

    It’s weird how critiquing or rejecting certain ideas now is escallated so quickly to basically murder, and deserves abusive insults and thought police black listing.

    I am not talking about people who are a little discouraged by a harmless comment and then choose to ignore it… but people who go on the attack because you “insulted” some famous person they don’t even know personally! The healthy thing would be to walk away, or talk it out civilly “well why do you think that.” It transcends sex, ‘gender’, age, orientation… some people aren’t capable. It’s like they get black out mad because you said he for she isn’t effective or you shouldn’t wear black to the oscars in protest.

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